Sun, surf, and segregation
Mar. 31st, 2003 12:46 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beetigerI’m back from a week of pure escapist lounging in Key West. I managed to get plenty of sun without collecting a sunburn, plenty of water while only getting slightly queasy once or twice, several slices of excellent Key Lime pie, the opportunity to commune with both stray cats and chickens and captive butterflies, and my recommended weekly allowance of drag shows. The week’s soundtrack was overall excellent, though lediva did lament the lack of Beach Boys. Most importantly, I got a well-needed big ol’ chunk of high-quality time with ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lediva, who is just an amazingly wonderful person to be around.
We stayed at Pearl’s Rainbow, a women-only resort in the old part of Key West, and a perfect home base for wandering around. It was quirky and comfortable and populated by older-than-Spring-Breakers lesbian couples, who lounged around a pool surrounded by tropical plants, sunning themselves. It was cozy and safe feeling and just right. I’m not sure why part of me feels, on a gut level, that these people are more like me than the perfect-in-a-bikini 22 year-old Spring Breakers on the boats, without talking to either of them. It’s all physical stereotyping, and it makes me feel vaguely ashamed when I catch myself at it. Sometimes I feel like a real fake in lesbian spaces, me with the wedding ring and the phallic talisman tucked into my clothing and the sort of straightish look and the determinedly ambisexual spirit.
In general, I’m kind of conflicted about the fact that I really enjoy women’s spaces, gay or straight. I know so many gender-variant people who’d love to be welcomed into that kind of community, and just can’t for physical reasons manage it. I know people in male bodies who are much more safe/caring/loving/add-your-own-stereotype-here than some women that I know. I’ve been in women’s groups where people are gossipy, catty, and just not very nice, and ones where the main topic of conversation is male-bashing. And I can’t really put my finger firmly on what the difference in womanspace is, something that feels energetically different, something about the gender sameness that matters, even though by all reasonable rights it shouldn’t. Nevertheless I really crave it, especially in a spiritual/religious context.
Now I’m back in the office, with a lab bay filled with about seventeen quadrillion boxes that got sent to me during the week, a dusting of snow on the grass outside, and no increase in desire to hang out with my coworkers, whom I’m not sure noticed that I was gone. Life goes on.
lediva did lament the lack of Beach Boys. Most importantly, I got a well-needed big ol’ chunk of high-quality time with lediva, who is just an amazingly wonderful person to be around.We stayed at Pearl’s Rainbow, a women-only resort in the old part of Key West, and a perfect home base for wandering around. It was quirky and comfortable and populated by older-than-Spring-Breakers lesbian couples, who lounged around a pool surrounded by tropical plants, sunning themselves. It was cozy and safe feeling and just right. I’m not sure why part of me feels, on a gut level, that these people are more like me than the perfect-in-a-bikini 22 year-old Spring Breakers on the boats, without talking to either of them. It’s all physical stereotyping, and it makes me feel vaguely ashamed when I catch myself at it. Sometimes I feel like a real fake in lesbian spaces, me with the wedding ring and the phallic talisman tucked into my clothing and the sort of straightish look and the determinedly ambisexual spirit.
In general, I’m kind of conflicted about the fact that I really enjoy women’s spaces, gay or straight. I know so many gender-variant people who’d love to be welcomed into that kind of community, and just can’t for physical reasons manage it. I know people in male bodies who are much more safe/caring/loving/add-your-own-stereotype-here than some women that I know. I’ve been in women’s groups where people are gossipy, catty, and just not very nice, and ones where the main topic of conversation is male-bashing. And I can’t really put my finger firmly on what the difference in womanspace is, something that feels energetically different, something about the gender sameness that matters, even though by all reasonable rights it shouldn’t. Nevertheless I really crave it, especially in a spiritual/religious context.
Now I’m back in the office, with a lab bay filled with about seventeen quadrillion boxes that got sent to me during the week, a dusting of snow on the grass outside, and no increase in desire to hang out with my coworkers, whom I’m not sure noticed that I was gone. Life goes on.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-03-31 04:05 pm (UTC)That said, I think you're right about there being a difference. As an almost 50, bi, involved with another female person...well, I feel vastly uncomfortable *showing* that affection in 'public'. My love is even more inhibited about it. When I read the description, my first thought was "Oh, that would be wonderful!". I'd like to feel comfortable enough to 'spoon' with my love...but unless it is someplace specifically designated as such and that I KNOW is safe, I can't do it.
Yes, organizations are one thing...but a private vacation is something else. And I think I should have the option of going somewhere I'm comfortable enjoying myself. If no one provides that...well, hiding in hotels rooms to cuddle instead of holding hands down by the pool is a lot less fun.
no subject
The point is, there are much, much better ways to select for the sort of people who won't threaten or harass you than to cut out an entire chromosome-coupling. These are all cultural things, not biological things, and let's face it... nothing will make you 100% safe, sure as hell not keeping out a bunch of people based on their biological sex, some of whom might have the exact same benign intentions as you and your lover.
The message I get from Pearl's Rainbow is "we're keeping out the men, lucky you." But does that really make you safe? Is there anything stopping, say, a pair of evangelists from the 700 Club from coming in and spoiling your vacation? Can you predict how well a person will welcome your affection for your partner based on their gender? Look me in the eye next time we see each other, and tell me that you think Rik or I need to be secluded from you and Rita because we're a threat. I think there's a better way.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 02:17 pm (UTC)The point is that I should be able to take a vacation somewhere both I and my partner feel comfortable. Yes, safety is illusionary, and people like you and Rik are not a threat to us. Logically, both Falconcat and I know that, accept that...but there's a world of difference between knowing it's safe logically and *feeling* safe.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 02:30 pm (UTC)So should I, Secanth, so should I. And that's not an option to me right now. Nor is it the owners of Heaven's Pearl obliged to provide that space -- any more than a turn-of-the-century country club owner is obliged to let those fractious, hot-blooded Jews, Italians, and Negroes onto his private property. But I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick it to FC here. Why? Why would she be uncomfortable? If it's because she's only seen me in the flesh 2-3 times and she's shy because she doesn't know how I react to things, that's one thing. If she has specific evidence for a particular stereotypically masculine trait of mine that would make her uncomfortable, like my temper, that's fine. If the scent of testosterone screws up her tactile nervous system, that's fine. :p But if she'd be uncomfortable cuddling with you around me because I'm biologically male, then I'm going to have to say that I don't think she has a very good rational basis for that discomfort. And I could totally, utterly sympathize with her past experiences if they've led her to that discomfort -- I'd be OK with an individual, especially a friend, pleading that the basis of their behavior was irrational and would I please respect it anyhow. If my male body or ~40% male personality bothered her, I would respect that. But supporting people's irrational prejudices, no matter how much those prejudices should be tolerated in the name of friendship and respect, is NOT appropriate behavior for a business, nor a government, nor any other institution. Again, if it's indecent for a business to cater to people's racial or classist prejudices and keep "those rabble" out, it's equally indecent to keep "those pigs" out no matter how much more comfortable it would make people with their prejudices. I'm sorry to have to say it in such blunt terms -- you know my affection for Mom-3 and Mom-4 is unshakeable and I would never hold a difference of opinion against you -- but I feel very strongly about this because it affects my daily life and my prospects for happiness as surely as the converse affects yours and FC's. There is more that unites than divides us and I am not so different from you.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 02:39 pm (UTC)Re:
Date: 2003-04-01 05:37 pm (UTC)Furthermore, I still haven't heard anyone stand up and tell me why, since black people have done things just as heinous to white people as whatever happened to your lover, and vice versa, it is not just as acceptable to create whites-only spaces -- or, for that matter, men-only spaces.
Secanth, you know that a great many of Runnerwolf and my friends from CWRU were abused or traumatized by their parents -- people 30 and over. And despite that, we love a great many people 30 and over. Imagine the coolest science fiction convention in the country, one to which all your friends were going, one at which certain things happened which did not and probably could not happen anywhere else in the world, things which are very close to your heart... Now, imagine that because of a few people who had been traumatized by the actions of older people there, the entire convention decided to bar all people over thirty.
How would that make you feel, Secanth? How would it make you feel to be told that, simply because of something which you can't help and take for granted about yourself, something you'd accepted and had never really had a problem with before, you are unworthy of our company at this convention? Wouldn't it sting just a little? Wouldn't you have to wonder just a bit why lil' ol' you is suddenly this big threat? Can't you imagine that, just for a moment, your self-confidence would be addled and all the stereotypes and fears associated with age would come knocking at the door, that you're too authoritarian, too prudish, too outmoded, just plain too obsolete? And if you failed to fend those fears off, can't you imagine that you might walk around for the rest of your life wondering if, no matter all the nice things your younger friends say about you, if some of these stereotypes aren't true?
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 06:03 pm (UTC)But some traumas go far too deep to go away just because we wish them to....some take years of therapy just to LIVE with, much less overcome. And if you happen to be able to turn back time, by all means go back and deal with the root causes...because otherwise you have to deal with the results. Or rather, she and I deal with the results. I'd love to be able to make it all go away, let us both forget it, and move on...but sometimes it doesn't work that way.
Re:
Date: 2003-04-01 06:42 pm (UTC)Believe me, the issue of the masculine propensity for abuse and violence weighs pretty heavily on my mind, and it scares the hell of me that I'm even peripherally a part of it. It twists my soul and shatters my internal mirrors. I can't so much as raise my voice to Rik or Runnerwolf during a friendly argument without feeling like every heavy on every Lifetime movie of the week. I've wanted to put a fist through the window every time I've heard one of my female friends recount her suffering. I've seriously pondered taking a train to Canada to strangle the man who assaulted D*****n when she was younger. I've wanted to cut my balls off with a knife when I've second-guessed what that very capacity for indignant rage said about me and my prospects to become a gentle and loving human being, fully accepted by my friends as worthy of emotional intimacy. So yes... you could say I'm a little bit aware of the issue.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 06:49 pm (UTC)(((Hugs))) I remember a certain wall and a certain convention....and a certain conversation we had. (smile) I know it bothers you, believe me.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 07:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-04-01 07:20 pm (UTC)Re:
Date: 2003-04-01 07:21 pm (UTC)Safety and Comfort
Date: 2003-04-01 02:50 pm (UTC)It's a strange thing in the nature of gender-segregated spaces that people who are excluded by them seem to "want in" much more than other types of private spaces separated out by interest. No one complains that they can't go to Republican conventions when they are Democrats, or that Catholics aren't welcome at a Jewish temple. It just wouldn't be of interest.
I wish I knew why gender is so core to our culture, whether there is something existentially different about that parameter. I know women's spaces feel emotionally different from general spaces, or spaces that are divided up in any other way I've experienced, in a way that I really like. Maybe it's just the standards of behavior, I don't know. Maybe, given our culture, it's the only way for the some women who are scared and inhibited by their relationships to men to act like themselves.
I've been to pagan events which were not technically women-only, but which had very small numbers of men at them. It didn't ruin the space for me. So I suppose if we could figure out how to build feminine spaces that just were boring enough to men that only a few of them would show, it might be okay.:) (Though ask Bard. He's been at some of these things from that perspective, and I daresay he didn't find them that friendly.)
I would like to see more openness to people who really believe they belong in women's spaces, but who don't physically fit the mold, transwomen who don't pass well or sissybois who actively pursue a feminine identity all the time. Women's space, to me, *is* a psychological thing, but it comes from the psychology of consistently living as a woman in one's mind and in our culture, not from having a vagina.
I often wonder whether, in that perfect world down the line, there would still be a place for places for people who share something to gather away from people who don't share that thing, for a time. I think there would, though that place wouldn't be a place that collects taxes or massive advertising dollars or any of those things that make excluded folks feel like the need to bash down the doors.
Just someplace where I could hear women's voices singing.
Re: Safety and Comfort
Date: 2003-04-01 06:14 pm (UTC)Now, I don't think it's that simple in my case. This isn't just a matter of "the grass is always greener." I'll spare you going over my resume. ;p And as a matter of fact, not only have I always wanted to see Mecca, I felt an insatiable curiosity about what was in the Temple's Holy of Holies ever since I read the Old Testament... and I found myself filled with a seething annoyance many years ago when I read about that one Greek Orthodox temple that even female livestock, much less female humans, are excluded from...
And I don't think that utopia would mean eliminating all the places where people who share something to share it in the absence of people who don't understand or embrace it. I think it would mean those places would represent that think they seek in a more pure and just form, free of illusions and easy answers about what that thing truly is. I think it would mean being able to truly know the nature of each would-be participant, well enough to know whether they're a threat to this holiness, without making inevitably cruel and baseless guesswork from their external appearances. Again... if you believe that the thing you sought at Heaven's Pearl was a chromosome, a hormone, or a genital mode, you are welcome to make that case.
Some other time, maybe in person, we'll discuss the DScream and our own highly successful experiments in boredom and obfuscation as a filtering tool. :)
I sold out my gender and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
Date: 2003-04-01 02:18 pm (UTC)Thankfully, there are places opening up, like TransBound, the furry cons... and whatever kink communities I can find whose wealth doesn't cause me as much class discomfort as the male-dominated world causes some gender discomfort. :p But interestingly, back to the "academic spaces" thing, where the hell are we in the theory world? Are the mainstream academic feminists possibly as much out of touch, as guilty of chauvinism and denial of the postgender message, as the previous male-dominated academic world was about feminism? Is there just a cycle of oppression going on? Looking at how each generation of the sexual-minority movement treats the following generation, I think it's at least a question worth asking...
Re: I sold out my gender and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
Date: 2003-04-01 02:31 pm (UTC)I'm not disagreeing with you...yes, there should be spaces we ALL feel comfortable with, whatever our gender identities may be. (both physical and/or mental) And I know virtually nothing about the academic community. I was speaking purely from the perspective of MY relationship. But shouldn't there be a place where those of us who aren't all that open can *start*? For some of us, I think we'd have to 'work our way up' to actually being comfortable with everyone. (Sort of the 'If I can be open *here*, maybe I can ....' version.)
Re: I sold out my gender and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
Date: 2003-04-01 06:01 pm (UTC)Again, I'd be OK with the existence of women-only places if there were real hope of getting feminine-only places. But I think that the theories on which modern feminism bases its defense of these one-gender spaces actually inhibits the development of mixed-gender spaces based on avoiding the problems of masculinity without excluding all males. And I think that's wrong.
I can forgive individual errors here, and I can even forgive people who passively perpetuate the problem in the process of doing other good things, but I can't forgive people who think there's no problem at all.
It's what I call the "Barbie Doctrine" again, and it plagues modern social theory discussions. Most people can't get past the idea of "You're criticizing Practice X, so you must be saying that Practice X is always evil and wrong." It's like, when I try to tell conservative ultra-straight people that Barbie dolls perpetuate bad body image, they fume, "Why do you hate Barbie? It's just a freakin' toy!" But I don't hate Barbie. I think giving a single kid a single Barbie doll is pretty harmless, and I don't begrudge Mattel the right to make a fashion doll with totally unearthly body proportions. :) It is, in itself, pretty harmless. But the cumulative effect of all the toy companies and all the anoxeric little plastic girls in the world is not harmless. It would make for a better world if Mattel at least also made dolls that had "pudgycute pagan chick" proportions and used its PR machine to teach such girls that they, too, were worthy and adorable. It's the refusal of the toy companies to acknowledge the problem or use their power to solve it which is a moral crime.
I have no more problem with Heaven's Pearl than I do with my niece having a full collection of Polly Pocket dolls. She's not a little automaton, she's a bright, assertive and clear-eyed girl with a strong sense of self and a grandmother who's already teaching her not to take any shit from anybody. :D She'll be fine, and if Polly Pockets make her happy, I'm glad she has them. And if Bee and Diva enjoyed their week at Heaven's Pearl, that more than justifies their existence. But all the same... if the feminist community as a whole refuses to deal with the issue of us feminine males, the 5th columnists among the patriarchy who have sold out our gender for nothing but a handful of patronizing apologies, then everybody who runs a women's-only space will have to answer for our fates.
Re: I sold out my gender and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
Date: 2003-04-01 06:11 pm (UTC)Re: I sold out my gender and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
Date: 2003-04-01 06:50 pm (UTC)Re: I sold out my gender and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
Date: 2003-04-01 07:00 pm (UTC)Re: I sold out my gender and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
Date: 2003-04-01 07:02 pm (UTC)