beetiger | Sitting here on the fringe with my kid, looking at the view

Sitting here on the fringe with my kid, looking at the view

While I was out in Florida taking my kid to Disney World, a totally canonical American family activity, I got email from Marie, the woman who runs the Sampler project I was raving about. She'd been receiving a number of emails, LJ comments in her community, and an anonymous return of one of the pins I sent for the May Sampler, which had this design. I'd cleared them with her before sending, as she does in fact reserve the right to not accept submissions that she thinks might be offensive. She didn't believe they were. However, some people, or maybe someone and zir posse, did. I can't see the comments, as she deleted them, but they were apparently very inflammatory. When she physically got the return, she decided to contact me in case the people had also been contacting me directly. (They hadn't.)

After a friendly if somewhat confused email from me in response, she agreed to let me keep contributing to the Sampler, though she suggested I not preview my items on the LJ community. ("That might not be good.")

She did send me a summary of the complaints, as follows:
1) satanic symbolism
2) items inappropriate for a child
3) their christian ethics being insulted
4) the business name promotes the demonization of children

Usual policy for the Sampler is that if you receive something not to your liking, you should pass it on or trade it. If it's something you really think no one should have, just throw it out and say "Eww" or something.

This is really a trendy arty community, and I really thought hard to figure out what might have a high "cute" factor even if you weren't pagan.

Then I wake up this morning to find my friends' page splattered all over with this case from Indiana where as part of a divorce settlement, the custodial parents of a boy aren't allowed to teach him their Wiccan beliefs -- when this was not otherwise an issue in the divorce settlement, just the judge's personal thing.

I keep trying to get my head around the idea that people think I'm dangerous to kids, just by existing. I start to get worried that I'm setting my little boy up for trouble, as soon as he opens his little mouth to talk about his day to day life. But when he looks down at his shirt and says "Cat! Star!" and laughs a lot, I just can't see any peril there. And the fact that someone can makes me profoundly sad.

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It's just irritating that such intolerance continues. But it's like I was telling my friend the other night, religious tolerance is often a contradiction in terms. One can't really be tolerant of fundamentalist Christianity, because their religion is based on forcing their beliefs on everyone else. So if you say 'I respect [your] right to be a fundie' what you're really ultimately saying is 'I respect your right to impose your views on the rest of the world whether they like it or not' because that is what they're all about. That is the basis of their worldview.

The only way for things to ever change is to realise that they have no right to push their crap on anyone, and to let THEM know that they have no right to push their crap on anyone. And you have every right to raise your children how you deem fit, because they're your children, not anyone else's, and the only way for things to ever change is for precisely people like you to raise tolerant children in whatever faith you practice.

I think it may actually be more important to raise tolerant children, that are taught to choose their own faith. My 'rents are.. active christians. My dad is a pastor at a local church, both make yearly missionary trips to an orphanage in Zimbabwe, and religion saturates their daily lives, but the one thing I love about my parents, is that the allowed me to choose for myself. They gave me their suggestions, pagan friends gave me their suggestions, but in the end, I was allowed to decide for myself what I felt was the most apropriate interpretation of the metaphysical pertaining to myself.

Religion must be a personal choice. It says so in just about every bible or religious book.

Teach your kids what your way is, but when the time comes, let them choose their own way, and as long as its not hurting anyone, support them whatever it is.

Okay I'll stop rambling ^^

Exactly. Religion must never be imposed. Example goes a long way, but there must be personal choice allowed.

Religious tolerance IS possible. Problem is, most people mean "tolerant of my personal beliefs but the rest of you are weirdos". I respect the rights of my fundamentalist friends (and I do have a few) to believe as they do. We don't have to accept one another's points of view and in really good friendships (like those) we simply agree not to discuss the issue. That's the adult thing to do; too bad there aren't more adults behaving like adults out there.

That respect, incidentally, STOPS when they begin pushing their beliefs on others. My fundie friends (and I have both pagans and mainstream) understand that the tolerance only goes as far as the existence of their beliefs and the right for their beliefs to conflict with mine. That respect doesn't include being able to push their morals and beliefs on others.

Make sense?

It does make sense. The problem is that one of the basic tenets of fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity is evangelization. If they don't evangelize, meaning, push their views onto others, they're not following their basic tenets. So then what are we tolerating? The fundies that are 'weak' in the practice of their religion? If we're going to say 'we respect your religion except for this aspect of it' then are we really being tolerant at all?

It all boils down to the faith thing. The moment one group labels their opinion as the only possible truth forever and ever amen, they've eschewed all tolerance of dissenting opinions. You can say you tolerate until you're blue in the face, but the moment someone pushes their beliefs on you (violently or not), or states their 'truth' is the only right one, it becomes about your beliefs being right and theirs wrong and then it's a defensive position. Especially in sects that put more emphasis on faith rather than deeds.

I've solved my own conflict with this by simply and publicly stating that I don't tolerate any religion which engages in aggresive proselytizing.

...or states their 'truth' is the only right one, it becomes about your beliefs being right and theirs wrong and then it's a defensive position.

After some thought, I'd have to say I slightly disagree here -- it is only a defensive position if you allow yourself to be placed there. I think Beetiger's handling this just right: some personal reflection, some checking to make sure she is doing what she believes is right and no one's being harmed by it... a moment of sadness for those intolerant others, and then you get on with your life.

Their ranting has made them look foolish. Bee's calm replies has made her the reasonable one. It's public behavior like Beetiger's that allows the rest of us to increasingly be more free and open in our life choices -- and as such, I feel it's also our responsibility to support Bee all we can.

Beetiger, from the bottom of my heart: thank you. You're currently in an unhappy-making spot, but you're quietly and calmly sticking to your ideological guns. Please let us know if there's anything we can do to help you too, to return you that assistance -- because in the long run it will help all of us.

I agree. Beetiger, from her update, is handling this very well as far as reaction goes. It's the complainer that put themselves in a defensive stance that wasn't really necessary. I was thinking of them when I talked about the defensiveness. How anything that contradicts their beliefs is seen as a personal attack. Like someone said further down the page, there's been a lot of propaganda that equates non-Christian with satanic, and a lot of people buy into that.

You're better at explaining it all than I am. :[

You're sweet to say that, and thank you. Mostly I just want to be sure Beetiger doesn't feel alone on this -- being the front runner of any change can be painful. I don't know how to help her, but I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to be of assistance, and hopefully if there's anything we can do, or that she needs, she'll let us know.

Yes, what you said, ditto that. ;D I'm a knucklehead but if I can help anything in any way, I'm all for it.

But I think I've veered from the point. I just tend to get worked up when people act like the ones that complained about

beetiger's designs. It's precisely that kind of knee-jerk attitude (leaving nasty comments instead of simply throwing the shirt away and moving on with their lives) that gives Christians in general a bad name. And I do feel bad for the non-venomous brand of Christians, in a way.

Somehow I can't help but think that teaching a child that there's only one right answer to a problem-and that you just have to take it on faith that it's the right answer-is far more dangerous than exposing a child to a bunch of different possibilities and then encouraging the child to find zir own right answer. It's disheartening to think that this not only makes me part of the extreme minority in this country, but that the majority thinks I'm dangerous because of it.

On a lighter note, I absolutely love the bear shaman shirt and will at some point order one in black for myself, because it rocks.

Kristy

*hug*

This is not only profoundly sad, but these people are being bloody offensive all on their own. Wow. I'm so sorry you've had this experience.

She did send me a summary of the complaints, as follows:
1) satanic symbolism
2) items inappropriate for a child
3) their christian ethics being insulted
4) the business name promotes the demonization of children

1) pagan != satan
2) essentialistic labeling
3) By merely being reminded of other faiths?
4) pagan != demon

I keep trying to get my head around the idea that people think I'm dangerous to kids, just by existing.

Most of those people are simply ignorant. I've been to churches (large ones, with thousands of members and television cameras) that claim *anything* other than Southern Baptist is the same as Satanic. They also claim there's a grand Satanic conspiracy out there trying to convert people to organized acts of murder, torture, and sexual abuse.

In any case, I can identify with your sentiment. I'm in the sort of situation where I have to come to terms with the fact that although I have a gorgeous bathing suit, I can never wear it in public without being arrested. I can never visit a waterpark again. Nothing about my body is considered "acceptable" for public display. Maybe someday people will be more tolerant, but it'll be a long road. At least things are better today than they were thirty years ago, and for the most part this change is due to people such as ourselves who continue to exist dispite the easily offended sensibilities of others.

Trickster

Trickster --

You are dangerous just by existing. You show that there's more options than the mainstream wants to recognize.

You're intelligent, well-spoken, and far outside normal roles in many ways.

And that's extremely dangerous.

I don't really have time to respond to anything, but while I do agree with you, your perceptions according to the evangelicals that I know of would be a little off.

1) pagan != satan

There are only 2 forces in the universe (Ignoring the Trinity and Judism for the moment). There is God, and then there is the Fallen One. Anything that distracts you from the Faith of God is attributed to the Fallen One, therefore any other religion belongs to that enity. (Which is complete bull... but that is the view point)

3) By merely being reminded of other faiths?

As above, there is no other faith except that of Jehovah. Therefore any percieved symbology become Icons, and must be destroyed.

4) pagan != demon

Absolutly. However Demonized doesn't really mean that your child is becoming a devil, last time I checked. All that it really means is that the person is wallowing in sin, typically in a violent manner. My definition however may vary.

While I understand that this shirt can scare die-hard christian groups out there, I tend to think of them as a whole over react and tend to let others do the thinking for them.

In Anycase, your milage will vary, and I'm sorry for any trouble this might have caused.

I tried to look at your design, but the filter here blocked it. Probably just on the name. How sad.

And the judge in that case is totaly stupid.

It's a cute lil' black cat kitten winking, superimposed over a yellow star/pentagram.

I'll look at it at home. I love black cats :)

*hug* People are, well, weird about religion. Very weird. And often aggressively stupid.

I'd say something more meaningful, but I was up all night working on some freelance art, so my brain's dead.

I love that design... it's one of my favorite t-shirts! Sorry you had to deal with the negativity.

Your design is adorable.

I think it's terribly sad that people are not only so ignorant and intolerant, but seemingly deliberately so; unwilling to even accept or listen to other people's explanations, but wrapping themselves up in their own heads.

In both my professions, this bothers me a lot.

In what bizarre world is it okay to say things like this about someone else's religion? How would they like it if, say, someone were to send back a gift they sent with (searches for the most narrow and inflammatory language she can muster) "This item has christian symbolism that is entirely inappropriate for children. I refuse to expose my children to two thousand years of torture and murder. And the KKK burns crosses on people's lawns; how can you expect anyone to want to put a symbol like that on a child?!? I am insulted by your immoral proselytizing."

Well, anyone acting like that would probably be mocked, and removed from a group, etc. But somehow, it is "all right" to say analogous things about pretty much any other religion. It's a peculiar cultural blindness. Even a reversal like that wouldn't really serve to illustrate just how offensive they are being; all that can be seen is the exaggeration, but of course they don't exaggerate...

Augh. Where does one find the teaching tools?

And educating all the time is so tiring.

I think it's pretty frigging obvious they looked into your background before complaining. On the surface, it's a totally innocent image. I wouldn't look twice at it. They're just shit disterbers, if it had been a pixie they would have complained about it being pagan, if it had been a tree they would have complained about it being pagan. They're just trying to be jerks, but you know that already. Geeze, some people.
If you want, I can draw you an angel for NEXT sampler, just to shut them up ;) With rainbows and hearts and crap...

Sorry about the coarse language, I'm just pretty damn annoyed.
American Christianity is seriously, seriously messed up. God save me from their version of the Almighty...

How about an angel hugging a black cat? Heads would explode, I think. But it'd make a cute shirt!

Exactly what I was thinking!

I'd buy that for a dollar. =>

Heya!

I saw 1/2 things I liked on the site... Should I order through there or email you and get it at the next munch??

HLW

If you want to pay by credit card or paypal, order through the site, choose "Local" as your shipping location. If you want to pay cash or check, shoot me an email. I can deliver to the munch either way.

3) their christian ethics being insulted
4) the business name promotes the demonization of children

These last two were likely their primary complaint; a sensible person would have explained to them that if they want to continue participating, they need to simply pass on items which are not to their liking.

I don't understand the threat either. There's no evidence that pagan raised children grow up to be any more screwed up than their mainstream counterparts but there IS plenty of evidence that Christian children at least are not so well treated or adjusted. Just think...ALL of the children in foster care here in Florida come from Christian homes and they have all been abused and neglected.

You're doing just fine with your boy. Don't let a few bad apples in the barrel spoil your taste for the pie.

Oh, I'm not worried about how I'm raising him.

I'm worried about the first time he tells someone about his life and someone tells him he is going to hell, or that his mother is a slut. I'm worried about people throwing hate at him for who I am.

This is something I worried about with Eric's step-son. While not my business, I advized him that the child will not be existing in a bubble, that kids are cruel, simply because they're kids establishing a hierarchy. I met with a brick wall. Bee, the fact that the concern crosses your mind makes you a more responsible parent and you are to be highly commended for that! I worry about Eric's step-son, but not your little guy.

as for that judge, I hope this becomes a big enough scandal to unseat him.

Trust me. From experince. It doesn't matter who you are, or what you might be. Hate finds you. It is how you confront and deal with that Hate that makes you the kind of person you are.

... It's something that I still am coping with, I think...

It still goes back to the fine parent you are. He'll have enough security to understand that these people hate themselves. I don't believe with you and Bard as parents that he'll internalize it. I think he'll be compassionate and pity them instead.

I'm often reminded by things like this just how far outside the mainstream I live.

Sad.

I'm here to provide the alternative perspective, offered in the spirit of friendship.

First, they were wrong to complain when there is a policy in place for dealing with items they don't want. They could have simply thrown it out if they didn't want someone else to have it.

Fifteen years ago, I would have agreed with them in spirit, if not in their actions. There is a huge amount of "Christian" literature available stating that everything to do with paganism has the actual purpose of leading kids into Satanism, and that the most dangerous form of paganism is the cutsie, cartoony kind expressly because it is appealing to kids. There are whole books on the subject of how the Smurfs showed kids how to perform satanic rituals. The "Christian" publishing industry - and in the States, it's huge and growing - makes an absolute fortune telling people who trust them that paganism = satanism, and that pagans are out to get your kids and turn them to the Dark Side.

The fact is, a lot of people never really question these beliefs. They're raised to believe it, and they do. End of story. I'm not saying that's right or good; just that it is. They're honestly afraid of other faiths leading their kids astray, because in their heart of hearts, they know that they're not perfect Christians themselves and they could easily be led astray themselves.

Anyway. I think these fundamentalist views are becoming more, rather than less entrenched in American society. I wish I could say otherwise, and I wish I had the power and the voice to tell other Christians that they're acting like asses and they should get their heads out of the sand and see all the wonderful diversity in the world. But the very act of me saying those things would have me branded as "ignorable Liberal pseudo-Christian, already deluded." I would be ignored, and perhaps even reviled as attempting to lead their kids away from the One True Way, too.

There's not much you can do, except remember that you're living the best way you know how, and in the end, they can't stop you any more than you can stop them.

I wish I had something more encouraging to say.

*hugs* You know I have no problems with Christians generally. I have problems with people who believe that it's their job to save the whole world, and that it's their right to have the universe cleaned up to their expectations.

You know, I was previously worried I'd look like less of a Christian for doing a blatantly mythological and magic oriented webcomic, but I doubt I'm ever going to be enough of a Christian for the sort of people who read these things and therefor worry about evil influences, so I'm gonna stop caring what they think.

I make sure that my church friends and some of my in-laws are not fully aware of the depth of my depravity, but I do not hide things - I just neglect to mention them to people whose opinions I care about. My pastor? He's a jerk, and I don't want the kind of spiritual guidance he offers, so if he thinks I'm going to hell for playing D&D, he's welcome to his opinion but not in my house or in my face.

Luckly, no one 'close' to me is of this sort of mind, though I always worry about my mum seeing some art that may have swearing or violence in it. More the internet furry Christians that I've known in the fandom. Some are... well... an odd bunch.

I think it stinks that so-called Christians consiter non-christians, Wiccans in particular, as 'fair game' to public humiliation and discrimination because of their religious views and attitudes. If a non-Christian were to engage in the same kind of behavior they would be instantly denounced.

Your designs are adorable and I would have no qualms about my girls wearing any of them!

*hugs the Beetiger*

I'm terribly sorry that there are such closed-minded people out there.

I think the picture is adorable!

It's so damn sad and exhausting.

We just can't see each others' point of view, and it's not like any of us are especially ill meaning - we just want freedom, and they just want to make sure that their Jesus forgives us and allows us their bright heaven after what they consider a good lifetime. And whoever you consider right or wrong, at some point this turbulent part of history will settle down, and then how are we all going to live with each other afterwards?

The design is fabulous. Screw the fundies!

If only the fundies understood how new they are and how old their religion is...
I wonder if they have ever:
- spoken to the Divine and heard it speak back
- been asked to do something by the Divine with made no sense in this world
- and did it
- been forbidden to do something their Good Book says is okay
- or been encouraged to do something the Book forbids them
- worshipped anywhere but the Officially Sanctioned Area (prayer doesn't count)
- been shunned for breaking any of the aforementioned rules.

Working with the Divine is fucking dangerous. These people are lightweights compared to you, hon.

*hugs*

That's one of the things that was great about having you and

projectmothra here--knowing that we could support each other just by being poly-pagan friendly and talking about the sorts of things that are important to us, things that I usually end up self-censoring with other folks as a force of habit.

& I'm still giggling over 'that might not be good.'

I think that an important thing to remember is that our kids know who we are on a far deeper level than the labels reveal. I'm sure when they're adolescents they'll roll their eyes and beg us to conform more to the mainstream...but if we were the mainstream, they'd be equally disgusted with us for different reasons.

Keep the faith.

people suck ass,

the world will always have its ignoramisis(?), i live in red-neckvillle, its very ignorenty..

~Z~

(i like the design)

theres alotta swaps out there, (ive been looking about) and quite a few that are geared twords alt. fashions n sutch, i'll let ya know if i see any good ones :)

~Z~

btw- can i intrest you in a peice of jewlery or something equily entertaing for one of those patches?i'll make what you wish-
i'd proudly wear it :)

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Sitting here on the fringe with my kid, looking at the view

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Imperiling a child?

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Life Is Offensive

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