Sitting here on the fringe with my kid, looking at the view

[beetiger]

While I was out in Florida taking my kid to Disney World, a totally canonical American family activity, I got email from Marie, the woman who runs the Sampler project I was raving about. She'd been receiving a number of emails, LJ comments in her community, and an anonymous return of one of the pins I sent for the May Sampler, which had this design. I'd cleared them with her before sending, as she does in fact reserve the right to not accept submissions that she thinks might be offensive. She didn't believe they were. However, some people, or maybe someone and zir posse, did. I can't see the comments, as she deleted them, but they were apparently very inflammatory. When she physically got the return, she decided to contact me in case the people had also been contacting me directly. (They hadn't.)

After a friendly if somewhat confused email from me in response, she agreed to let me keep contributing to the Sampler, though she suggested I not preview my items on the LJ community. ("That might not be good.")

She did send me a summary of the complaints, as follows:
1) satanic symbolism
2) items inappropriate for a child
3) their christian ethics being insulted
4) the business name promotes the demonization of children


Usual policy for the Sampler is that if you receive something not to your liking, you should pass it on or trade it. If it's something you really think no one should have, just throw it out and say "Eww" or something.

This is really a trendy arty community, and I really thought hard to figure out what might have a high "cute" factor even if you weren't pagan.

Then I wake up this morning to find my friends' page splattered all over with this case from Indiana where as part of a divorce settlement, the custodial parents of a boy aren't allowed to teach him their Wiccan beliefs -- when this was not otherwise an issue in the divorce settlement, just the judge's personal thing.

I keep trying to get my head around the idea that people think I'm dangerous to kids, just by existing. I start to get worried that I'm setting my little boy up for trouble, as soon as he opens his little mouth to talk about his day to day life. But when he looks down at his shirt and says "Cat! Star!" and laughs a lot, I just can't see any peril there. And the fact that someone can makes me profoundly sad.

Comments

[elven-wolf.livejournal.com]

It's just irritating that such intolerance continues. But it's like I was telling my friend the other night, religious tolerance is often a contradiction in terms. One can't really be tolerant of fundamentalist Christianity, because their religion is based on forcing their beliefs on everyone else. So if you say 'I respect [your] right to be a fundie' what you're really ultimately saying is 'I respect your right to impose your views on the rest of the world whether they like it or not' because that is what they're all about. That is the basis of their worldview.

The only way for things to ever change is to realise that they have no right to push their crap on anyone, and to let THEM know that they have no right to push their crap on anyone. And you have every right to raise your children how you deem fit, because they're your children, not anyone else's, and the only way for things to ever change is for precisely people like you to raise tolerant children in whatever faith you practice.

[inaki.livejournal.com]

I think it may actually be more important to raise tolerant children, that are taught to choose their own faith. My 'rents are.. active christians. My dad is a pastor at a local church, both make yearly missionary trips to an orphanage in Zimbabwe, and religion saturates their daily lives, but the one thing I love about my parents, is that the allowed me to choose for myself. They gave me their suggestions, pagan friends gave me their suggestions, but in the end, I was allowed to decide for myself what I felt was the most apropriate interpretation of the metaphysical pertaining to myself.

Religion must be a personal choice. It says so in just about every bible or religious book.

Teach your kids what your way is, but when the time comes, let them choose their own way, and as long as its not hurting anyone, support them whatever it is.

Okay I'll stop rambling ^^

[elven-wolf.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Religion must never be imposed. Example goes a long way, but there must be personal choice allowed.

[walkertxkitty.livejournal.com]

Religious tolerance IS possible. Problem is, most people mean "tolerant of my personal beliefs but the rest of you are weirdos". I respect the rights of my fundamentalist friends (and I do have a few) to believe as they do. We don't have to accept one another's points of view and in really good friendships (like those) we simply agree not to discuss the issue. That's the adult thing to do; too bad there aren't more adults behaving like adults out there.

That respect, incidentally, STOPS when they begin pushing their beliefs on others. My fundie friends (and I have both pagans and mainstream) understand that the tolerance only goes as far as the existence of their beliefs and the right for their beliefs to conflict with mine. That respect doesn't include being able to push their morals and beliefs on others.

Make sense?

[elven-wolf.livejournal.com]

It does make sense. The problem is that one of the basic tenets of fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity is evangelization. If they don't evangelize, meaning, push their views onto others, they're not following their basic tenets. So then what are we tolerating? The fundies that are 'weak' in the practice of their religion? If we're going to say 'we respect your religion except for this aspect of it' then are we really being tolerant at all?

It all boils down to the faith thing. The moment one group labels their opinion as the only possible truth forever and ever amen, they've eschewed all tolerance of dissenting opinions. You can say you tolerate until you're blue in the face, but the moment someone pushes their beliefs on you (violently or not), or states their 'truth' is the only right one, it becomes about your beliefs being right and theirs wrong and then it's a defensive position. Especially in sects that put more emphasis on faith rather than deeds.

I've solved my own conflict with this by simply and publicly stating that I don't tolerate any religion which engages in aggresive proselytizing.

[collie13.livejournal.com]

...or states their 'truth' is the only right one, it becomes about your beliefs being right and theirs wrong and then it's a defensive position.

After some thought, I'd have to say I slightly disagree here -- it is only a defensive position if you allow yourself to be placed there. I think Beetiger's handling this just right: some personal reflection, some checking to make sure she is doing what she believes is right and no one's being harmed by it... a moment of sadness for those intolerant others, and then you get on with your life.

Their ranting has made them look foolish. Bee's calm replies has made her the reasonable one. It's public behavior like Beetiger's that allows the rest of us to increasingly be more free and open in our life choices -- and as such, I feel it's also our responsibility to support Bee all we can.

Beetiger, from the bottom of my heart: thank you. You're currently in an unhappy-making spot, but you're quietly and calmly sticking to your ideological guns. Please let us know if there's anything we can do to help you too, to return you that assistance -- because in the long run it will help all of us.

[elven-wolf.livejournal.com]

I agree. Beetiger, from her update, is handling this very well as far as reaction goes. It's the complainer that put themselves in a defensive stance that wasn't really necessary. I was thinking of them when I talked about the defensiveness. How anything that contradicts their beliefs is seen as a personal attack. Like someone said further down the page, there's been a lot of propaganda that equates non-Christian with satanic, and a lot of people buy into that.

You're better at explaining it all than I am. :[

[collie13.livejournal.com]

You're sweet to say that, and thank you. Mostly I just want to be sure Beetiger doesn't feel alone on this -- being the front runner of any change can be painful. I don't know how to help her, but I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to be of assistance, and hopefully if there's anything we can do, or that she needs, she'll let us know.

[elven-wolf.livejournal.com]

Yes, what you said, ditto that. ;D I'm a knucklehead but if I can help anything in any way, I'm all for it.

[elven-wolf.livejournal.com]

But I think I've veered from the point. I just tend to get worked up when people act like the ones that complained about beetiger's designs. It's precisely that kind of knee-jerk attitude (leaving nasty comments instead of simply throwing the shirt away and moving on with their lives) that gives Christians in general a bad name. And I do feel bad for the non-venomous brand of Christians, in a way.