Loving the lost

[beetiger]

The depression is hitting heavy again, the way it did a few years back. I recognize it now, so I'm hoping I can meet it part way before it blindsides me, this time. Casual IMs and friendliness help a lot with that, so don't be shy.

But I don't want to talk about that. The main reason I haven't posted much lately is that I don't want to talk about that, and that's been most of what's on my mind, except for T-shirts about which I suspect you are bored.
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At one of my previous jobs I had a friend who was a literalist Christian. She was a sweet person, and we were sincerely friends -- we sang together in the company choir that went to nursing homes at Christmastime, she helped me choose bridesmaids' dresses for my wedding, we talked a lot. But I knew that she was utterly and completely sure that I was going to Hell.

I can easily see why I could be friends with her; I just thought she was wrong on that topic, and it wasn't an important topic to me, so I just connected with her on other things. But I find it hard to understand how she could be friends with me, believing that I was damned. Perhaps she thought that there was still a chance there somewhere. Or perhaps, like those who befriend the elderly or those with terminal illness without worrying about how much time they'll have together, she just thought she'd share her love in the present and not wory about the ultimate results.

When does it make sense to give up on a lost cause?

Comments

[loesaurus.livejournal.com]

One of the people I used to work with that I am most fond of was a girl who's father was a Pastor. She was attending a Baptist college, and was the nicest, easiest person to get along with. She was the sort of person that didn't make me cringe when she said she'd "say a prayer for me" if I was having some random difficulty.

She referred to a lot of the world around her as the "secular world" and was most interested in the lives and thoughts and goals of those she worked with. She wasn't an in-your-face christian - I think she may have learned from her father to focus her energies where they were needed. She may have believed we were all going to hell in handbaskets, but also believed that her interactions weith people might have an affect on their lives.

I am probably not making sense - but there are some devout christians out there who embody all of the good, positive teachings from christian theology, who love people for who they are and make even a pagan like myself aware of what simply real, beautiful people they are. Your friend sounds like one of these people. She doesn't look at you as a lost cause - you have many redeeming qualities she appreciated and could connect with. Just like you did with her. Hmmm. Sorry to ramble - just for what it's worth. :) Hope you feel better before too long. Recognizing that slide downhill goes a long way toward preventing it. My AIM is in my userinfo. I am on Pacific time, but feel free to IM if I am on.

[cktraveler.livejournal.com]

I've -- briefly -- had friends who felt the same way about me. Once I discovered that fact, I couldn't get past it; I wasn't able to cope with trying to respect someone who was unable to respect me in return.

When I've confronted the people who held these beliefs and asked them why they associated with me, the answer always came down to conversion, either by argument or example. That was part of it, too ... I don't like feeling like prey.

[tygermoonfoxx.livejournal.com]

I Spread the URL everywhere I could think of; you should have some orders coming in from that as several were pregnant and looking for the type of stuff you create.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Just like you didn't understand her, she didn't understand you, imagine how much you confused her!

For all you know she didn't give up. Perhaps, to her, being an example, (as she saw it) and being a friend and caring about you (and maybe praying for you) was her way of not giving up. Who knows. As long as she was respectful about it.

And giving up otherwise? If it is truly a lost cause and you tried your hardest and it is hurting you more and more until you cannot be you anymore? That sounds like a good time to give up. Or if it is hurting someone else, like when Ted couldn't nurse -- didn't WANT to give up, but when he had to be weighed every day because he was dropping weight like crazy? Had to accept that all the mothers milk tea, pumps and weird feeding devices just wouldnt work fast enough -- but with the physical measurement of something like WEIGHT, yeah, thats easier to judge. Something like my grandmother, I 'gave up' after I saw her in the hospital. I knew she had cancer, and knew that my visit to her may be one of my last. But we talked like everything was normal, but when I kissed her goodbye, I knew I had to let go. Just instinct, really.

Why am I so rambly tonight?

And I DO like hearing about tshirts because it is inspirational. I wish I had talent and patience to work for myself, like that.

[cktraveler.livejournal.com]

I doubt it'll help any, but I have put a Little Pagans banner in my userinfo. I don't think I know anyone cool with children that age, but if I wasn't in the process of a cross-country move I'd get a Bast T-shirt for myself.

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

*hug* Sorry I've been edgy when you've IM'd - I've been focused on too many things at once.

Religion. Religion is weird. I've mentioned in my own journal that I have a friend who's a right-wing Christian. And yet even after I came out as pseudo-Pagan, and later, as vaguely queer, then as trans... we're still friends. There's a definite sense that, on certain levels, religion's just not a topic of discussion.

He may think I'm going to Hell; he may not. It's never come up. I know some churches are more liberal about being the One True Belief, and he certainly doesn't take the Bible literally - he's had a thorough science education, he'd have to be split-minded to deal with that and being literal.

But when I stop and think about it, I do wonder. If he thinks I'm hellbound. If he's written off my immortal soul as my own problem, after all this. I dunno. I never will, unless I ask, and I don't think I want to know.

Maybe "accepting" is a better way to see it. "Giving up" has connotations of losing, that you could have done it, could have won. Accepting that something's a lots cause, and just dealing with it, is different.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

If this is a situation, then you give up when the benefits outweigh the cost.

If this is a relationship, then there are two sides to it. If you don't give up, but the other person wants you gone, is it ethical to stick around?

Don't know the answer. I wouldn't--that's why I'm studying medical ethics. :)

Not seeing the lost cause here...

[schitzie.livejournal.com]

Hard as it may be to swallow, there are a few Christians out there (myself included) that believe in NOT shoving religion down the throats of the heathens.

*giggles*

It's a matter of both understanding and accepting the whole 'free will and free choice' that humanity is supposed to have. To try to force someone into conversion is, well in my eyes, a blatant disregard for the gift of free will that God gave to everyone.

That, and as a human, there's a good possibility that my personal beliefs aren't fully the 'right' ones, if there are any actual right or wrong decisions where faith is concerned... my logic, my leaps of faith, and my beliefs may be on the wrong path. I'm willing to damn my own soul over what I believe if I'm wrong, but it's not really fair to drag anyone else down with me.

I mean, I consider myself a Christian, I practice some shamanistic philosophies, I date wiccans... you really think I'm a good choice for converting the masses?

Now, biblically speaking, Christ associated with heathens... whores, thieves, lepers and the diseased... I really don't think that the only thing he ever did was preach. He told a lot of stories, brought some wine, and I'd like to imagine smiled a lot at being around the creations of his father... seeing the world as they do. I mean, look at your own life... would you really accept a guy that comes into your house and suddenly starts talking up and down that you're hellbound and it's only by bowing down to him that you'll be saved? Ummm... no, more than likely, such a person would be escorted away by the nice officers (provided bodily harm wasn't inflicted...)

See... I'm not God, so I can't speak for him (or her... or it... whichever you wanna see God as), as I have NO clue what the plans and machinations of a diety are. There are a lot of Christians that seem to forget that little truth. If I'm going to be a messenger of God, then I'll do it as myself, and through whatever kind of flawed, human example I present... but not as some kind of hypocritic loudmouth on a soapbox saying that everyone but me is going to Hell.

... cause I'd look REAL silly if it turns out that I'm wrong, and I end up in the waiting lobby of Hell when the curtain falls for my prison box seats.

Now, as for depression, random acts of hugging seems to help some, so ... *HUGS*

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Having been, at one point in my life, in the position of the Christian in this scenario, I can sympathise some with both sides.

I never was friends with people purely for the purpose of converting them. Christians are taught that a Godly life will be constantly thinking about the "lost" and praying for them, and for me, that was simply a part of my mental life at the time. I got many benefits from their friendship, and I'm sure they got many from mine, when the conversion issue slipped to the background for a while. I did not, at any time, think of them as trophies in my Christian walk - they were the prey I'd hunted. It really doesn't work like that.

On the one or two occasions when someone has asked me why I associated with them when their beliefs were so different from mine, the answer was simply that we were friends. If they pressed me, the issue of conversion might have come up because it was a large part of my mental landscape. It was never the primary reason or even the most important one, since even as a teenager I had issues with the concept of conversion.

I suppose my question is - were they uncomfortable with your paganism, or were you the one who was uncomfortable with their Christianity?

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

From a Christian perspective, Jesus didn't hang out with the religious elite, but rather with the poor, the sinners, the unclean, etc. They followed him because he was first and foremost their friend. (That's not to say, of course, that you fall into those categories!)

One of the aspects of my life which is still very Christian is my belief in a merciful God. I remember asking my mother (who was ordained in the Salvation Army) what would be the status of Sam in the movie Ghost, since he wasn't a Christian. My mom told me that there was a line in the funeral service for a non-Christian which was not usually included for a Christian: "We commend his/her soul to the mercy of God Almighty." The biggest reason that I no longer describe myself as a Christian is that I can't handle the egocentric, conversion-centred aspects of the faith. I still believe there's a heaven, I believe most people will find it by living to the best of their knowledge and revelation, and (what is least Christian about me) I believe they have different paths to get there. Perhaps your friend, without even being conscious of the shift, has accepted a little bit of this pluralism herself - at least enough that her concern for your soul does not overwhelm her joy in your friendship.

Someone who is walking the Christian walk the way it should be done will be prepared to take joy and happiness where they are found. If that's in the friendship of someone with a wildly different worldview, so be it. Maybe the best parts of each faith will rub off on each of you. We are enriched by sharing of ourselves, if we accept the gifts as they are. It's only when we question them that they become problems.

[mister-wolf.livejournal.com]

I'm not realy big on this whole damnation thing, but having been brought up thinking about it, this is what I imagine was going on in her mind:

Just because you're damned doesn't mean they don't like you. She would have thought it was a statement of fact, not a thing to hold against you. It's not like, "my friend is a bad person", it's like, "my friend has cancer and won't seek treatment". It probabally made her sad.

Also, the damned are very exciting company.

Be thankful the Christians still hold out hope for the rest of us.

[orb2069.livejournal.com]

History shows what happens when they stop.

[cktraveler.livejournal.com]

I have friends now who are devout Christians. What said friends have in common is the belief that provided one is living a Christlike life, it doesn't matter whether one is living it in Christ's name, or in Allah's, or in Buddha's, or in Zeus's or Re's or Odin's (Matthew 25:31-46).

The Great Commission is not a part of all Christianity, nor is it something that is necessarily deserving of tolerance simply because it is a belief. It is, at its base, a fundamental lack of tolerance on the part of those who believe it, the idea that those who are different from the self are inferior or deluded, and must change to become like the self. That's prejudice, and that single belief has been at the root of most of the most shameful episodes in church history.

From your comment it sounds as though you were able to work through the issue and learn to accept diversity (which is actually a far more Christlike attitude). That's something to be proud of, and grateful for; a lot of people never manage to do that.

In any case, it is not my religion that was the issue for these people, but my sexuality, and that's not just prejudice, it's outright bigotry.

[rowyn]

Perhaps, to her, being an example, (as she saw it) and being a friend and caring about you (and maybe praying for you) was her way of not giving up.

I think there's a lot of merit to this. I've known a lot of "quiet Christians" who were my friends before my conversion, and they're just being around and friendly made Christianity much more attractive than the "You're DAMNED if you don't!" crowd.

Of course most Christians want to "convert the heathens." But conversions aren't made by browbeating folks until they avoid you. If you want to convert someone to your way of life, the best way is to hang around them and show them how happy you are with it -- and ergo, how happy they could be if they followed the same path. O:)

I agree on your advice about other lost causes, too.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Point taken. I know plenty of Christians who abhor evangelism. Unfortunately, growing up in the Salvation Army, I didn't have a lot of support for my budding intolerance of intolerance.

First of all...

[susandeer.livejournal.com]

*SNUG!* Healthy is the mind that realizes when something is off and chooses to do something about it! As for the shirts, I love them!

And, speaking as a recovering Catholic who pretty much considers herself a spiritualist christian and someone who knows you from working with you, I'd say she remained friends with you because she genuinely valued you as a person, as I'm sure we all do. @:)

When should something be considered a lost cause? When you're trying to help/affect the person becomes detrimental to your own mental/physical well-being. Some people you just can't reach and you know what? We (anyone trying to cause change, no specific religion or POV) are not always right.

People should live more in the moment and really appreciate what's in front of them, because tomorrow holds no guarentees. Plan, but don't assume.

[beetiger.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the link. Lemme know when you get settled in your new home. :)