Thinking about peeing

[beetiger]

I got Rhys a potty, since he's been really interesting in flushing the toilet whn I use it. I took off his diaper and put him on it; he promptly hopped off, stuck his head in it, and peed on the floor. Not sure what to make of that.

I've been thinking a lot about gender-neutral bathrooms these days. I was at a performance of the Vagina Monologues last weekend, and the bathroom situation was just silly -- lines down the hallway for the women's room, and no one in the men's room. I couldn't get any of the women to hop overto the other side, though I suggested it to several. Part of it is the cultural taboo, I think, but part of it is just...the urinals.

Urinals are weird. We don't have them in bathrooms at home. Women's rooms don't have them, and generally they don't have extra stalls to compensate. I would think that standing with your genitals exposed in a public area would be really odd. So, why?

I have to know.

[Poll #448516]

Comments

[ubiquity.livejournal.com]

For people who use women's restrooms in public: Would you ever use a men's room?

Sure, but only if it's a single-person restroom.

[beetiger.livejournal.com]

I wish you could edit polls. I should have separated that out.

[goodluckfox.livejournal.com]

Bwhahaha! :) You're great, Beetiger. :)

I didn't know that y'all's bathrooms did NOT have extra stalls to compensate the fact that you don't have urinals. I thought they always did? What on earth do y'all have on that blank space on the wall?

No, men do NOT peak. We pretend that by god we are the ONLY person in there, evein if people are stacked up 3 deep behind you waiting their turn. Eyes front and NO TALKING! Those are the rules. :) Male bathroom etiquette is different than female. :)

WHY on EARTH would I want to sit on a public toilet??? In a mens room, generally, they're only used for sit down business. Would you want to sit down on one that was doing double duty so to speak, and doubly used because it's multisex?

Loxley

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

... And this is why I hate being a man. :'D

Well... among other things, as well.

[cktraveler.livejournal.com]

What on earth do y'all have on that blank space on the wall?

*thinks a moment* Usually either a shelf with a mirror above it for fixing/applying makeup, or one of those disgusting Koala Bear Kare baby-changing stations that never gets cleaned.

[beetiger.livejournal.com]

I've had to use those. I wipe them down with disinfectant cloths and then put my own pad down on top of it.

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

[hbergeronx.livejournal.com]

many mens rooms have these as well.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

When was the last time you saw someone use it?

Me, Personally? Disneyland, New Orleans Restroom, back in November. First and last time I saw it used...

[hbergeronx.livejournal.com]

it's not so much that they are used, as much as they are there. The implication was that the changing station supplants the urinal, and that's not generally true. If there is a changing station, both bathrooms have one.

I have seen them used often, particularly in the mall. Give a man a tool to make his life easier, and he will use it, IMO.

[beetiger.livejournal.com]

1) Girls learn to hover when we use public toilets.

2) Do people actually wait on line behind the urinals? In women's rooms, we wait on line in the room, but we only see people washing their hands or maybe using the changing table or putting on makeup.

[lysana.livejournal.com]

I don't bother to hover. I'll pick up more germs opening the stall door than sitting down on the seat.

[rowyn]

I'm with you. I've *never* understood the whole "hovering" thing.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

The first time you experince sitting down when someone has missed the center... well, there you go...

[rowyn]

Nope, that just makes me annoyed with the hoverers, because they're the only women who can miss. And I always *look* at the seat before I sit down.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

YOu never know in unisex bathrooms, though.

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

In my experience, the line in the men's room stops, at the closest, about ten feet of the way from the urinals. Guys just do not want to risk being accused of looking at each others' cocks. They're programmed with a lot of dick-size insecurity, and a lot of queerphobia. And fear of being seen as queer.

I casually used urinals my entire male life, and yet never used this to have a sense of where my dick stood in the grand scheme of dick size. TMI: Everyone who's ever held it and expressed an opinion has said that it's thicker than most they've encountered, and a functional if unremarkable length, but I never learnt that myself through observation in public bathrooms.

[krdbuni.livejournal.com]

Having once used men's rooms on a fairly regular basis, I have no idea how I would react now to the idea of going back into one, even if it were an emergency. I still suffer from sufficient body-image issues as to make the idea unappealing for fear of being "misidentified", or "read".

It's entirely possible that a matter might arise in which the options are men's room or nothing; when I first started my transition I was invited to a tea house with my parents that literally did not have a men's room. They had a women's and a women's overflow that could serve as a single-occupant men's bathroom in time of need, but no dedicated men's room. I still don't know how I feel about that.

Ultimately I think (or at the very least I hope) that society will at some point in the future get over its collective hangups about the body and about sex and gender and all of that silliness, and people will simply go to "the bathroom", not "the men's room" or "the women's room" or even "the unisex room". I suspect it will not happen soon, or easily, but I hold out hopes that it will one day happen.

Kristy

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

I agree, both on the 'ideal' and on the feeling that it will happen one day, but it may take a while to get here.

[postrodent.livejournal.com]

Goodluckfox is right: The urinal protocol is that you stare straight ahead at the tiles, with a stone face. If you're the nervous type like me, you also have your body as close to the urinal as hygiene will allow, to minimize that whole genital-exposure issue. No glancing here or there to assess other exposed genitalia, even if you Like Guys That Way.
In general, male bathrooms are not a social space. You do what needs doing and leave, in an atmosphere of mild tension. The males who'll strike up a conversation in the lavvy, particularly with a stranger, are few and far between, though they do exist.
Of course, this is the perspective of someone who's dissatisfied with their socially constructed gender and uneasy in male-only spaces -- actually, I suspect Bard and I probably feel about the same about male bathrooms.

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there's this elaborate and unspoken protocol of the urinal. Don't forget the rule that you must always try to maximize the space between yourself and any other man. Never take the one right next to someone else unless the place is packed. I wouldn't be surprised to find that rule in force even in the bathroom of a gay bar.

I was really kinda weirded out the first time I had a conversation in the women's room, once I was secure enough in my new gender to use them. (For a while, I'd just do my damndest to hold it until I could get home, rather than face that choice.) It is, as you pointed out, just Not Done in the men's room, and the men's room has been my public bathroom experience for, um, all but the last few years of my life.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

(a) The one women's restroom I went into *did* have extra stalls to compensate. But it was one extra stall replacing two urinals, becaus urinals are smaller.

(b) I *tried* to peek once (when I was feeling, er, insecure), but it wasn't really possible. Even when the urinals don't have strategically placed dividers, peoples' pants tend to hang open in such a way as to block line of sight.

[paka.livejournal.com]

I really hate urinals - this is because as a kid, it meant you were distracted while your back was perfectly open. That's a wonderful opportunity for bullying, so I started using stalls when I absolutely had to go - that puts a solid locked door between you and any peers with brilliant ideas.

These days if I just need to pee, I'll use the urinals because who knows, someone might come in desparately needing to shit - and it'd be rude to take up a stall instead. The big exception are those big aluminum troughs you're supposed to pee in, in some public places. I would rather pee in the bushes than use one of those things.

I kinda wish that people were more relaxed and also installed stalls intead of urinals. It'd be more utilitarian, in case a bathroom were out of comission or needed to be cleaned.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

Your lucky... our schools didn't have locks on the doors. If you used the restroom, you did number 2 in front of everyone...

I learned to wait till I got home...

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

In France, the stalls go all the way to the floor and the ceiling, and there is no gender division. Ensured of complete privacy, who cares about the person in the next stall?

[dasnarrenschiff.livejournal.com]

Venerably awful goth club Slimelight in London has unisex toilets. Or, at least, they usually end up that way after around 10pm. It seems to work out okay, often acting as a preternatural hang-out spot for casualties.

[lapis-lazuli.livejournal.com]

I've been to Slimelight many times, but I've never been brave enough to go to the toilets there.

[hbergeronx.livejournal.com]

for those of us who have penises, urinals are by and far a little bit of genius. The penis, in general, is more sanitary than the face or hands, and urine is generally sterile. Add "autoflush", and I don't see why you would even need to wash your hands. People are going to say "ew" at that, but whatever. It's irrational. You wash your hands and touch the same faucet that someone with poopyhands has just touched to turn it on, and whatnot- are you any more clean? Not bloody likely.

As for the looking thing, you *should* look to see where you're going, at least- no one likes to have to attend a bowl where someone's aim could have been better. It's unnatural that if someone approches you at such close a distance, you don't at least glance to see they're not aiming at *you*. At least in sports bars, they have the smarts to post the back of the newspaper above the urinal so that the glassy eyed stare isn't so disturbingly autistic.

[cktraveler.livejournal.com]

Cecil Adams' The Straight Dope: Why are men supposed to wash their hands after urination? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_220.html)

[hbergeronx.livejournal.com]

while good points are made, it's mostly nonsense. By those measures, anyone who parforms oral sex regularly should wind up with "food poisoning" of some form, and it just doesn't happen in numbers that would support such a view. Most coliform backteria are (in general and not in puncture wounds) completely harmless.

While those who prepare or serve food, or perform surgery, or deal with the immune compromised, are well advised to wash up, the obsession with germs that most people have is leading to the creation of better germs, not cleaner hands.

[cktraveler.livejournal.com]

At the bottom someone did write in and ask if his girlfriend was going to die for performing fellatio, since she was obviously directly ingesting bacteria. He kind of didn't answer that.

That said, men are taught to wash after urination not merely because of bacteria but because the smell can stick to your hands and come off on other things. I know this because of the odor a Magic deck acquired after I lent it to someone who didn't believe in washing up.

[hbergeronx.livejournal.com]

well then. He's obviously not a Yalie.

If your hands acquire a smell from your genitals, it's not the not washing your hands that's the problem. It's a not keeping your genitals clean problem, imo. It's about not being conscious of your own body. If your hands have acquired a nasty smell, irrespective of origin, and you bypass a thoroughly convenient opportunity to wash up because "you don't believe in washing up", that's a mental disorder, not a failure of hygiene.

And, for reference, the smell of urine can come from more than your genitals, since you excrete uric acid from your sweat glands everywhere on your body.

That said, all of this is irrelevant to the argument at hand, so to speak. There is a rampant irrational fear that needs to be excised. It's why people wont shake hands with a homosexual. It's why people hover instead of giving the seat a quick swab with TP. Its why little boys run away from cooties. Its why Purell and Lysol can sell billions in product without having any provable positive health impact. Its why vancomycin resistant bacteria are what keeps public health workers in night terrors.

It's all the same elitist b.s.: wrapping something in the aura of "the public health" when it's just loony made-up superstition.

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

I have gone in the men's restroom, either because the lines were too long or because my child insisted upon it. :-D I did feel a little self-conscious (& offered up some sort of disclaimer upon entering), but I think they've largely been empty when I did that.

I have never peed in a urinal though. I'm not sure how that would work.
Or if it *could* work, really. But I do envy physical males the ability to pee discreetly!! :-D

But, beetiger, you rock for making us think and talk about this. :-D

I think coed restrooms would be really cool. It'd also be great for parents--no more 'which restroom' dilemmas for preschoolers who are adamant about gender identity. :-)

It's interesting that to me that my local gay bars have the restrooms labeled separately, but (as far as I can ascertain) everyone just uses whichever one they want to and doesn't worry about it. Maybe someday that will be a more mainstream model.

[susandeer.livejournal.com]

I have used the men's room.

Three times.

Most were single stall ones. In one case, I opened the door and a man was standing there waiting! He was shocked! I pointed at the ladies' rooms line. "Oh!" I smiled and so did he! On one occassion, though, Kage stood guard for me. @:)

Would I use a more public one if I had to? If there were men in there already, I would, without looking in, ask if they minded first.

As for Rhys... Classic! @:) I hope you have a baby book to document this stuff! Hee!

[walkertxkitty.livejournal.com]

Also...how hard would it be to build the stalls inherently handicapped accessible? Everyone prefers those stalls anyhow because they have more room and it's really difficult to get one if you happen to be handicapped.

[collie13.livejournal.com]

I'm a tall person for my gender, and I loathe being squeezed into a stall so small I have to practically stand on the toilet to open the door. Equally annoying is having my knees jammed up against the door in order to sit. So I prefer the handicapped access stalls -- they're larger, & often they have their own sinks and mirror too. Frankly, I understand there's an issue with how many stalls can be fitted in if they're large ones, but why not combine two gendered restrooms into one unisex one, with completely private stalls? I'd far prefer that.

Regarding the poll, even though I'm female I answered it as well. I have no issues with using an empty men's room if there's a line at the women's room. The main reason I don't just go there anyway is I don't want to scare and/or antagonize men standing at a urinal and not expecting a woman to walk in. I've also waited quietly in a stall for a man to finish using the urinal & leave, for the same reason. I may not have an issue with using a men's room, but that doesn't mean I have the right to assume everyone thinks like I do, after all. ;)

That being said, I've had occasions where men have encouraged me to go ahead and use the men's room when the women's room was overly full or closed. Admittedly, these were often camping or college situations, where I expect the men are usually a bit more mentally flexible.

I've also "stood guard" for male friends using the women's room when the men's room was closed or overly full, but that was mostly because we were worried women would be very upset at walking in and finding a man in the women's room -- we recognized it was a different social dynamic than the reverse, regardless of how we might personally feel about it.

Yeah, thinking about it... count me as another vote for unisex, closed-stall restrooms. ;)

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

As someone who used to use the men's room, and now uses the women's room, I got to answer every question! Yay!

Mostly, the purpose of urinals is convenience. People with penises don't have to sit down to pee, and you can stick a lot more urinals side-by-side than you can toilets. This is a big part of why the women's line is so often longer than the men's: a man can wait for an empty urinal and just unzip, pee, then stuff it away and be off, while a woman has to arrange her lower body clothing to expose her whole ass and sit down and go. Plus there's dealing with the dubious hygene of whoever previously used it - seat covers, hovering, etc.

I figure that a sensible ungendered bathroom would have urinals, so that those who are able to stand and pee can do it. In the interest of simple efficiency.

My own bathroom habits are such that I only shit in a public bathroom if I have to. It's a long process, the place is stinky and impersonal and full of other people's ick, and the toilet paper's usually no fun clean yourself off with. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people save their poop for home, especially if they grew up having the option of the quick convenience of a urinal for peeing.

When I get around to genital surgery, one of the things I'm pretty sure I'll miss is the ability to go pee with little ceremony.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

There is the solution... at one time, someone had invented female urinals, so ladies with the big hoop skirts could use the restroom without having to struggle. It didn't go over very well, but I forget the reason why. I know the Straight Dope covered it at one time, though.

[r-ness.livejournal.com]

I like urinals. They're quick and efficient to use, and take up very little space. And they free up the commode for someone else to use.

Having said that I am having difficulty convincing bedfull_o_books that we should have one installed in our as yet nonexistent house.

So, my question, as someone who's used urinals since about the age of 3, and is thus very used to them: What's weird about them?

Then again, I also like squat toilets.

(And bidets!)

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

Urinals are weird for three reasons...

1) You are doing an act in public with only the illusion of security being how big and buff you can make yourself feel while peeing. (I have ALWAYS wondered what would happen if someone started to fondle someone else while using an urinal, and the mayhem to persue that)

2) YOu are doing it STANDING UP... for the longest, longest time, I found that completely weird. I didn't like it that much... It wasn't as high as #1, but it was pretty up there.

3) I know I had another reason when I started this... Cats walking distracting me...

I think it's the fact that I do this while others are looking that just freaks me out... I use urnals only when pressure of time (Like other people are waiting on me) call for me to. Otherwise, I perfer to sit down.

[alari.livejournal.com]

Whenever I build bathrooms in The Sims, I always use the stalls, and never put urinals in the men's room. And the bathrooms always have the same number of stalls and almost always the same features. Though one women's room I made had a small couch in it when the men's room didn't, but that was because of the design of the building more than anything, that bathroom had 2 extra tiles that the other one didn't. Nobody sits in it anyway. =D

[beetlebomb.livejournal.com]

I've had to use a mens' room in cases where the womens' room is so disgustingly filthy it makes me ashamed of my own gender! The one at the Dufferin Mall was the worst! Shit sprayed on the toilet seats ans walls behind them, dirty diapers and used feminiene hygiene products on the floor! It was downright appalling! And the park across the street was little better. The ladies room there had a choice of A. A toilet that was clogged and overflowing, B. A door that didn't lock or even close properly, in fact I don't remember if there even WAS a door, and C. a stall that was too mnarrow to be what I call "tampon-user-friendly"! I don't care where I go as long as it's clean and my knees aren't squished against the wall!

[bookwurm.livejournal.com]

When I was attending Oberlin College, the first dorm I was in voted by floor to decide whether the bathrooms would be co-ed each semester. The options were usually single-sex only, co-ed stalls but single-sex showers, or completely co-ed. Sometimes, people would recommend restricting co-ed availability to certain times. The vote went by most restrictive, rather than majority rule. It was a little weird the first few times I went into a bathroom and found someone of the opposite sex, but I got used to it pretty quickly. I was never on a floor with co-ed showers though -- I think that would have weirded me out a little more.

The dorm was an E-shaped building, with a bathroom in each leg of the E, so each floor had two bathrooms that were officially for one sex and one for the other. Most of the bathrooms had one stall with a toilet and one with a urinal, plus a separate area with shower stalls. (Or was it two with toilets and one with a urinal? I've been away too long!) The bathrooms "switched sex" every semester, as I recall. There were a lot of jokes about the signage reminding people of this, mostly regarding the physics of two bathrooms mating. ;>

[bookwurm.livejournal.com]

Almost forgot -- there's a nice restaurant in Ashland, OR, that has the best designations for washrooms that I've ever seen. They have two single-person (i.e. no stalls) washrooms with locks on the door. One is labeled "People." The second is labeled "Other People."

[beowabbit]

I would be perfectly content to use a multi-person ungendedered bathroom whether or not it had urinals.

In response to stuff people have said above about the cleanliness of toilet seats, I look, and if it's wet I wipe it with toilet paper before using it.

[bercilakslady.livejournal.com]

I have used a unisex bathroom regularly for 4 years, and on and off when visiting that place again afterwards. It took about a day to be totally used to the idea. These were at college (Vassar) and so they had showers in addition to the stalls. It was really funny when I was taking a shower, and my hall mate was not willing to get into the other shower until I was done. The shower stalls were separated only by curtains. I did notice that men and women were equally willing to continue a conversation in the bathroom, though not when one person was actually peeing.

In the main buildings on campus, all bathrooms were labeled, but after business hours, they were unisex. This so as to not freak out the visitors, I guess.